I shared a story about how Julian Assange helped save whistleblower Edward Snowden by facilitating his escape from Hong Kong. The story highlights Assange’s commitment to protecting journalists and whistleblowers, showcasing his willingness to prioritize the safety of others over his own. Despite facing opposition and criticism, Assange’s actions demonstrate his dedication to exposing government surveillance and advocating for freedom of the press.
-Ray McGovern
Misty Winston: Obviously, you’re a longtime supporter. You have been on the Action for Assange visuals, which I co host, numerous times. You’ve been a longtime supporter. And he is in a very precarious position right now.
He is inches away from being extradited to a country that was recently revealed to be plotting to murder him. Where do you see the Assange case going?
Do you feel as if there is any way to stop this thing? Do you think that he’s going to be extradited to the United States anytime soon?
Ray McGovern: My fear is that he is probably within weeks, and then we have to see what we could do to save him. You mentioned that I’m a supporter of Julian. Actually, I’m a close friend of his.
I used to visit him when he was holed up in the embassy there, the Ecuadorian embassy in London.
He’s not only one of the brightest guys ever, but he’s also a very caring person. He cares a lot about other people besides Julian Assange, which is very much in his favor.
I’ll give you one little example. When Ed Snowden, the fellow who revealed that the government is spying on all of us against the law and against the 4th amendment… When he went to Hong Kong, because, and the only way he could see reporters and get a story out. And then needed to get out of town because they were hot on this path.
Who saved them? Julian Assange. Assange. Yep. Yeah. He sent one of his lieutenants, Sarah Harrison, to Hong Kong.
They met up. And everyone in Hong Kong, the police, and the CIA, everybody else is looking for Ed in these high-priced hotels. Well, Sarah and Julian knew about other places where it’s much safer for a guy like him too, you could see the movie, I mean, they got them out okay.
And — Yeah. — long story short, he’s alive today. He’s got two little boys. It just a nice story. His girlfriend is staying with him. They’d like to come home, of course, but they’re safe. And I said, Julian, you know, I admire a lot of stuff about you speaking out for journalists and so forth, but, you know, top of the list is how are you going to be saved? Ed Snowden, now he truly is sort of a taciturn guy, not given to too much emotion.
But he (Assange) jumped off the coach and he said, yes. Yes. Lastly, we have to save them. We have to make it possible for one one clever whistleblower to escape what might befall me. prediction, you know, sustained, and what has happened before to other whistleblowers. So, you know, it was this spontaneous yes. I called in all my chips out there in the eastern part of the world.
And we got him out of there, and he’s okay. So, that’s Julian caring about Ed Snowden. Now if Julian was looking after himself, do you think he would want to make the CIA and the deep state madder at him? Still so angry with him that they throw the bucket at him? No.
So, he was thinking about others first. I think that that little element probably escapes most people. I can attest to it personally. And it all can also attest to these crooks and liars who stopped at nothing, who say that, well, we got to keep Julian going court to court. If we get him, we should put his head in a full toilet bowl and flush it a few times. I’m quoting a former state department security diplomat. Okay? No. It’s been really, really sad to watch. And the long story, of course, is what the US government is trying to prove is that any journalist that says anything untoward about the United States, The United States say, well, that’s a national security violation.
We’re going to prosecute. We’re going to find you. Doesn’t matter if you live in Iceland or Greenland or Australia or Tyler, we’re going to get you, and we’re going to put you in jail for the rest of your life. So, you have a choice. You can print this stuff. You can publish this stuff. Or you can couch out like the rest of the journalists who make big bucks by telling them stories as we give them to the press, you know.
It’s a real sad story, but the stakes could not be higher. Our first amendment is fierce. attack, and this is sort of like the epitome of that attack.
Misty Winston: Yeah. 100%. We should also point out that Ed Snowden was not Julian Assange’s source. This wasn’t Assange helping his own source. This was Assange’s going to great lengths and great personal risk to help somebody who was who worked with Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitris.
This was not Julian Assange’s source. And he went to I mean, as Ray said, he took a great risk. And, Julian Assange knew he was already public enemy number one of the world’s largest empire. And despite that, he went to great risk to help Ed get to safety.
And, Ed has spoken about that himself. He would probably be where Julian is now or worse had Julian Assange and Sarah Harrison not come to his aid at that time. And, so that and I think that’s a great story to tell, Ray. Because, I really think that that speaks to Julian’s character in a way that is just immeasurable.
I mean, that is who he is. I mean, you would know better than I, have never met him.
Ray McGovern: Yeah. You know, you couldn’t meet a better mensch, as well, or a more articulate or a smarter guy.
But, you know, when we gave Julian the Sam Adams Award for integrity, his mother was so happy because we’re the first ones to give him an award for what he did. And later. Of course, we have had Chelsea Manning, Bill Binney and Seymour Hirsch.
And last but hardly least, Dan Ellsberg. Dan Ellsberg accepted the award in April of this year and maybe it’s worth saying what message Dan wanted to leave in the interview with him for the small celebration back in April. And he said, look. Look. My message is this- Don’t do what I did. And he said, why? Why? Why? Yeah. Don’t wait.
Don’t wait until the bombs are falling. Don’t wait until the war is well underway. I waited too long. I should have spoken out in 1964 when I saw them lying to their teeth about Vietnam, I waited until 1971. Don’t. do what I did. Woah.
Now, that was his last relative view of that kind as far as I know and he was summoning up all the strength to do that because he was in good shape earlier that day. So, you know, for anyone listening in or anyone has the kind of information that could show what chicanery our government is doing, how it is that our defense department is saying Russia is bound to lose so that we can defeat Russia?
Or as the president says, Russia’s already lost. You know, if you can come up with something on paper that shows that no, they don’t believe this at all. Let us all. It’s all a ruse to sell more arms, make more money for people of Raytheon and Lockheed. As soon as you can do that, do it. Do it in honor of Dan Ellsberg, the quintessential whistleblower and the 21st recipient for the Sam Adams Award for integrity.
Misty Winston: Yes. And well deserved. Well deserved. An absolute giant of a man. It’s terrible that we lost him, but he did, you know, live an amazing 92 years on earth and fought until the end. I mean, he was As you said, accepting awards in April. He was doing interviews.
He was still fighting the fight up until the very end, which I think also speaks to who he was as a person. So, He was also a great friend of Julian’s, and I think that he would love nothing more than to have lived to see him freed. And, unfortunately, that’s not the case. But we can still fight to see that accomplished in his honor for sure. And it should be. It should be done. That should be done. It’s insane to me, Ray. It is insane to me that it is that this has been able to continue for this long. Julian has been in some form of incarceration for over a decade. And, it is mind blowing that all of the things that have come out over the past couple of years, the idea that the CIA co-opted UC Global and turned it into essentially a spying operation on Assange and all of his visitors. You were likely spied upon if you visited him there. You know, the idea that we now know that there was a plot developed at the highest levels of the Trump administration to either kidnap or assassinate him.
The lead witness has come forward and admitted to lying in his testimony against Assange in exchange for immunity. I mean, one thing after another that this case is just completely imploded. They have nothing on him, and yet here we are. And he is, again, inches away from being extradited to this country. And it is just, it’s really depressing that we ‘ve been allowed to reach this point. And I just don’t even know. I don’t know. As somebody who’s been on the ground for Assange for years now, I don’t know what else we can do.
I feel as if I hate to feel hopeless, but there are times where I do feel hopeless in this situation.
Ray McGovern: Well, that’s not allowed, Misty. It’s not a you know, people say I’m discouraged. Well, you know, in reality, I learned this in college. I had a basketball scholarship, and they still wanted me to, you know, write poems in Greek and in Latin, and so forth.
But, finally, I went to this Proctor. And I said, look, I missed too much, and they turned on me. And he asked, what’d you say? I said, well, and then I got angry. I didn’t say I was discouraged. I said, I’m disgusted. And he said, oh, well, I thought you said discouraged. Discouragement is not allowed. Disgusted, that’s an action word. Okay? If you’re disgusted, you’re going to practice the virtue of anger. Did you know that Thomas Aquinas spelled out the virtue of anger saying — Yeah. — that If you’re not, if you are not angry when injustice occurs, you’re committing a sin. And he railed against something called unreasoned patience, which, as he put it, sows the seeds of vice, nourishes negligence, and encourages not only bad people, but good people to do evil.
So, anger was this virtue in the middle. You didn’t want too much of it. You didn’t want too little. But courage and anger are the basis of all virtue. So, if you feel angry, realize you’re on the side of the saints here, and you’re being very virtuous, but don’t be discouraged.
Misty Winston: Yes. That’s fair. That’s fair. I think that it’s as you said, it’s difficult because it feels as if he is almost certainly going to be extradited to this country. I am just hoping that the response to that when and if that happens will be enormous. I’m not sure if it will be. It should be. I hope that it is. I think that we have seen the support for Julian growing over the past many years. That is encouraging to see people starting to come around on the issue and to see I mean, we now have members of Congress who were actually saying his name that was unheard of just, you know, a couple years ago.
So I feel like we’re seeing that kind of support? I mean, what do you think about that? What do you think that we are starting to see a shift in the right direction here? I think so.
Ray McGovern: I think so too. And, a little tidbit that gives me encouragement is that his father says Julian is very lucid and seems to be bearing up under this incredible strain. You know, one would sort of think that was not the case, but what his father, John Shipton, is saying is, yeah, he’s weathering the storm.
And, I do think that if he gets to the shores, there are enough of us that care about the first amendment that will summon up the courage to be very virtuously, virtuously angry and do some things that we haven’t done before in terms of putting our bodies into it.
Misty Winston: Yes. I hope that you’re right about that. I feel that you are. And I think that when I do feel discouraged, those are the things that keep me going because I have seen the support for him growing. And the idea that he has been able to withstand all of this is, I mean, nothing short of amazing.
And I don’t want to imply that he is otherworldly or, you know, somehow superhuman. He’s not. People need to remember, he is still just a man. Yes. He has been able to withstand over a decade of just some of the most horrendous treatment. And, of course, now going into his 5th year being held in a supermax prison in London, the Guantanamo of the UK, but he is still just a man.
And he doesn’t deserve what’s happening to him. It is an unbelievable outrage and just a monumental injustice that is happening to him. But we can stand with him. We can fight with him. We can’t spend time with him. Obviously, we cannot relieve that from him. but we can fight back. And I think that that’s why I’m glad that we ended on a positive note there because I don’t want to imply that it is hopeless.
I think that there is much hope to be had. I think that we’ve seen the support growing. There are things that we can all be doing in order to fight back against this, but we do have to come together and fight that fight. We have to be loud.
We have to come together. And it has to be coming together across ideologies. We have to realize that this issue is bigger than any one belief system or any one, you know, host of issues. This is something that affects all of us equally, and so this is something we all have to fight back against equally.
Thank you so much for taking the time to come to the show. It was a true honor to have you here. It is always great to talk to you. You have some of the best stories. I say that all the time. So appreciate you taking the time. Everybody can find Ray at raymcgovern.com. And as always, you can find links to all of his stuff at mistywinston.substack.com. So please go check out his work. You can follow him on all social media and, of course, check out his website.
